Sheet Metal Module Bugs and Weaks

[mub]

Sheet Metal Module Bugs and Weaks

I'm afraid the sheet metal module is very buggy and weak. Now i'm trying since several hours to make a simple bend. 90° is no problem - why less than 10° not?! I could cry! I was able to create the sheet metal part so far, but now i'm not able to make a flat pattern of this part. Well, i tried to figure out whats about. But now i'm even not able to edit one of the features without crash. So i tried to rebuild the part with attention to possible faults. No way. To work with this sheet metal module is very annoying and frustrating! Meanwhile i have a lot of expirience whit the Alibre Sheet Metal Module. It's not that i don't have any idea about...
For a long time now, we're waiting for the new sheet metal module. Still nothing. :?
What i mean is that now i'm working on this part since more than one day.
Basically i'm an Alibre Fan, but for example with Solid Works it would be possible to build this part, even with the "real" flat pattern within a couple minutes - and that since years!
I'm tired of waiting for a real Sheet Metal Module!
Nobody needs Alibre running under Vista or a Motion Module as long the drawing module and the sheet metal module are nearly useless!

Please post if you feel the same... Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

EXACTLY! Who cares about Vista, motion, etc. when you can't even get the basic stuff done in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[jwknecht]

Hate to say it, but I agree. Alibre is going way out on tangent functions while leaving functions that need work (bug fixes, enhancements) neglected.

I too am an Albre fan, but am getting tired of things not working as they should.

 

[scarr]

Something is missing here. I can create a sheet metal part with bends of less than 10 degrees without a problem, and in very little time (a minute or less), and then unfold it in about the same amount of time. Can you list the steps in the process you're using to create your part, or post a sketch of what you want your part to look like when finished. ex. below
1. Create Sketch for base tab
2. Select Tab icon to extrude base tab
3. Select flange icon and select edge of tab on which to create flange
4. Flange panel opens select flage parameters, bend angle, bend type, etc.
5. Create flange
6. Select Unbend icon
7. Select stationary face
8. Select Bends
9. Unbend the part
This would help tremendously when trying to figure out why something isn't working.
We sometimes bring work habits from other systems to Alibre, expecting it to work in the same way and are disappointed or get frustrated when it doesn't.
As a person involved in user support at another company, I can tell you that the more information we have the faster we can determine the root cause, and create a solution.

 

[moyesboy]

Irrespective of that specific 10 degree problem
The sheet metal mode is lacking and has seen no recent enhancements.

No ability to go from solid part to sheet metal (rip a box).
No ability to insert a bend in a flat bit of your part- you have to know all your bends preplanned from the start
for any bends to be not 90 degrees to the edges you must unfold, modify the profile and refold.
Tabs and flanges can be created that are not possible becuase they overlap in the flat pattern, you only get an error when you flatten the part and I'm not sure it flags and errror then you just have to see that it is wrong!
no mirror feature.
Only tooled feature is dimple and variations on that are limited - no louvres etc. plus no possiblity to use normal solid modelling tools to create such things in the sheet metal part.
I could probably go on for a while.
The sheet metal module is a bit "Mickey Mouse" really.

 

[scarr]

I'll accept that it won't do some things, like louvres, rolled flanges, and transition pieces, but for simple sheet metal parts such as, brackets, belt guards, sheet metal enclosures, frames, etc., that are produced with the equipment you find in a lot of small to medium size shops (brakes, shears, punches) this package will do just about everything else that's required. You can export a sheet metal file as an iges file and then import it to Alibre as a solid model, and create the features you're missing, but that rather defeats the purpose of a sheet metal part.
You can Mirror some features in the package Holes, Dimples, Cutouts, but not features created using the flange command, as these have a connection(link) to the edge they were created from.
And I'll grant you that it will let you do things like create flanges that interfer with one other, but this usually entails creating a set of flanges that would be impossible to create in the real world. I imagine a lot of other packages will let you do the same thing.
Alibre doesn't advertise you'll never make a mistake, no CAD system does. I can create any number of parts in both the solid modeling and sheet metal workbenches that would be absolutely impossible to make.
Alas, Alibre isn't the perfect tool for everyone, and I imagine it never will be, but I've said this so often it is ingrained in my thought patterns, for the money, it is difficult, very, very difficult to find a legal copy of any CAD package that will do what Alibre can do. It is the best package for the price on the market today.

 

[mub]

For discussions like this one my English may be too bad but i'll try to explain what i mean:

To scarr: I guess that everyone who understands a little bit regarding these things already knows what you try to say to us...

The sheet metal module is content of the professional package but as far as i'm concerned it's not a professional tool.

I'm very sorry but nobody cares about the price as long the software is not able to do what a company like ours needs. Creation of value is the keyword. For example, we do facade work which means that we have to build many complex shapes. With other packages (i know that they're more expensive - but that's not what's about) its even possible to make negative extrusions trough whole parts :arrow: with angles which are far away from 90°. With Alibre this is possible too but you can't unfold them after an action like this which it makes useless. Other packages are even able to "calculate the edges back" that the flat pattern is suitable for production. Many other packages contain modifiable spreadsheets for take-offs ect. in accordance to the material and it's thickness which is required for an efficient production. Only K-Factors are imprecise and troublesome.
And - for what the hell you should import sheet metal parts as a normal part to modify it? What we need are exact flat patterns for production. Nothing else.

Most of these things (I'm sure!) are already well known but nobody seems to care about. That's what bites! How many times all we guys have to explain the whole story until something changes?

Please don't missunderstand me but its a kind of frustrating...

Kind Regards

 

[scarr]

Hi Boris,
I'm very sorry if I sounded at all cavalier regarding the problems you're facing. As I stated, Alibre is not a perfect CAD tool, and the sheet metal functionality is limited. But I disagree with you on what you said regarding price/fucntionality. It is a major concern for most companies, and ROI is at the root of every investment I make in hardware and software. Dassault charges as much for their sheet metal package as they do for a standard seat of their solid modeling package.
If a tool doesn't do what I need it to do, then I didn't evaluate it completely for functionality before purchasing. Rather like buying a hammer when I needed a saw. This is not to say that there aren't improvements that can be made in the package, of course there are, and I believe Alibre will make those improvements, based on a host of factors, including price point, their own ROI, user need, etc.
It would still be nice though if you posted an example of what you're not able to do, or as I asked for in an earlier post, a list of the steps that led to the failure of the process.

 

[mub]

Hi Steve

Now i'm "back on the battleground" Thanx for your effort and your volition to help...

What i meant with the price / functionality is that for companies like ours - we count with costs (for one draftsman) about 80$ per hour what means that a software which costs about 20000$ per seat is better than a low cost software as long as you're able to do what's needed without special tricks which are needing a lot of time. That's what i meant with "creation of value". But that's not the meaning of this topic. Of course you're right regarding the price functionallity - regarding that Alibre is a heavy duty Software, but Alibre should not really compare with the other mid range tools - but they do. With such a topic i try to suggest the development team that there is really need regarding this module.
Concerning Dassault - i don't know how it is in the US, but in Europe -at least in Solid Works (no idea about CATIA - which is really very expensive) the sheet metal package is content of the base issue and is very very powerful as itself. I sent several examples directly to texas but never got any answer. And by the way, now i'm still waiting for any response because i can't open the assy with this special sheet metal because an error occures while loading.
Since V7 i'm waiting for the promised AMADA enhancements . What did we get since then? Not that much useful...
I don't think that it would make sense to upload the sheet metal i was working on. I guess that without any "rip a box" or "lay on a surface" function it's definitly not viable. It's made of three triangular sections to get the interface of two more or less complex shapes. I could post a screenshot of my part model in the binaries section. I would be grateful if you would be able to make it with the correct flat pattern.
So you're right again with your hammer / saw comparsion. The problem seems to be that i now really discovered the limits of this application and try to make every challenge with Alibre.

For example - maybe you remember the spoon at the last design contest...

I think that this topic is guiding to nowhere anyway because it's developet from acute frustration... :wink:

BTW. Excuse my spelling :roll:

 

[scarr]

Hi Boris,
I'm glad you're back - if that was your spoon I personally think it should have won - it was simply beautiful, or beautiful in its simplicity (seeming simplicity, but not so easy to make in a solid modeling application). Please post a shot of your sheetmetal part. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would be interested in seeing it.
I agree with you that more functionality is needed in the sheetmetal and drawing packages, and the AMADA enhancements would have been of great value. I have no idea what happened to that, but perhaps someone on the Alibre team could shed some light on it?

 

[HaroldL]

Re:

...more functionality is needed in the sheetmetal and drawing packages, and the AMADA enhancements would have been of great value. I have no idea what happened to that, but perhaps someone on the Alibre team could shed some light on it?

How long have there been requests for new features to be added to the sheet metal module? I think waiting for anyone at Alibre to "shed some light" on sheetmetal enhancements is/will be a waste of time.

I worry that, given the example of the SW reader, Alibre will upgrade/enhance sheet metal and then place a charge on it as a new module instead of treating it as an upgrade covered by the annual maintainence.

The next big items for Alibre will be Vista (mentioned by Mr Milleken in his latest blog - any guess on where they have been spending their time? Not, I think, on sheet metal enhancements.) and, I think, 64 bit and multi-core processor support. It sounds like they are going after the big hit items without fixing the current issues or adding to functionality.

HaroldL

 

[moyesboy]

In their "compare with other systems" webpage alibre has a tick for sheet metal like inventor/solidworks etc. however alibre only has 1/3 of the functionality compared to these other systems.
Alibres sheet metal allows you to fold up your sheet metal part out of a flat sheet.
It does not allow you to take a solid part and flatten it into sheet metal like the other systems do.
It does not allow you to devlop a roled part like a tank or manifold, only parts which have flat faces in their finished form.
It does not allow any form tooled features other than the very limited dimple (which doesn't translate in the flat pattern either).
So the feature comparison is a little optimistic!

 

[Mibe]

There is a simple solution to this, invest in a separate module for real advanced sheet metal work.

For instance, AutoPOL makes SolidWorks look like a toy when it comes to Sheetmetal and it still costs a lot less, even when Alibre Design is taken into consideration.

AutoPOL can unfold practically anything... why not try that?

 

[scarr]

I'm with you Mibe. If a person's business revolves around specialty sheet metal work, then there are several/many packages available, that do just about anything you need, transition work, louvres, etc. I've always felt that Alibre's sheetmetal package was designed for the machine building industry, not HVAC companies, specialty sheet metal companies, or consumer product companies. Many of the outfits I've worked for in the past would have loved this package. They did sheet metal enclosures, machine guards, brackets, conveyor systems, and the like. I've been able to use this package to do the same, with excellent results.

I've never had any huge complaints about Alibre, and I've been using it for several years now, but I always feel compeled to come out from under the porch, so to speak, when someone walks by and throws a rock at the house, and give chase, or at least bark like I mean it.

It's human nature to complain about anything and everything, and believe me, right now someone somewhere is complaining about Catia V5, Pro-E, Solidworks, their wife, their kids, the bad coffee they got, and the fact that no one belives they are actually the father of Anna Nicoles baby. For myself, I hope everyone has an excellent evening, and a wonderful tomorrow.

 

[Anonymous]

What everyone says here is fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is that Scott E. at Alibre told me over the phone and by email that they were going to have significant sheetmetal improvements by version 8. He also told me that they would have a couple of sheetmetal bugs worked out by version 7. That is why I bought version 6 when it came out hoping to get in on the ground floor of something that looked to be like a really great product. We are now way past when these improvements were supposed to be made and we haven't heard anything from Alibre. With the amount of money I have spent on Alibre and lost due to the time it takes for work arounds, I could have bought Pro/Wildfire and had all the functionality I needed for the last three years. I guess it goes to show that you really do get what you pay for.

 

[jwknecht]

Not only is sheetmetal going without enhancements, also the repository has gone without enhancements. (2 big zeros). We have not seen much in terms of surfacing added to the core package, nor 3D annotation, nor color features or faces, etc. We have seen some good 2D improvements, and configurations (2 big cheers!).

But, we have also seen tangents like motion, 3D acrobat, etc. We could end up with several half-baked modules.

I think that we need the speed enhancements that Alibre is working on for the big change (version 10). I don't care for Vista support, but it is coming. I would like to see more enhancements to sheet metal, to repositories, to the core package. I would like to see drawing views support configurations (be able to change the configuration of a view). I would like to see color faces as long as we can also make color views in 2D from the faces. I would like to see support for text and graphics on the part models. I would like to see 3D annotations so we can all move towards communication with less paper (this can even be mapped to work with Acrobat 3D).

Keep to the mission!

 

[HaroldL]

Re:

There is a simple solution to this, invest in a separate module for real advanced sheet metal work.

For instance, AutoPOL makes SolidWorks look like a toy when it comes to Sheetmetal and it still costs a lot less, even when Alibre Design is taken into consideration.

AutoPOL can unfold practically anything... why not try that?

I looked at AutoPOL before I bought Alibre, it wasn't cheap then and it certainly isn't cheap now.

Novedge is currently offering AutoPOL for Windows from FCC Software for only $4,095. Purchasing from Novedge you save $405 (9.00%) on the original retail price (MSRP) of $4,500. :shock:

How do you figure it costs less? :?

 

[Mibe]

The price you refer to must be the design package (Unfolder+Designer+Piper).

If it was $4500 it's about twice the price than it is in Sweden...

Check with another supplier if they sell the Unfolder only, that should make a great complement to Alibre Design.

 

[jemmej]

Honestly, I don't think half of us would be as irritated if Alibre hadn't hyped their sheetmetal package (comparisons to SolidEdge or BETTER were used which is quite heady stuff) and the Amada joint development. Improvements were promised a number of times (and delayed) and then the most we've received is some pattern tools. The sheetmetal packages still performs most of what I personally need but improvements would be most welcome.

And I disagree about the 2D drawing enhancements but that's just me!

Whatever your opinion of Vista, it makes sense for Alibre to support it so I can understand that aspect (and not bad for a .dot release either).

The pdf tools are tremendously valuable for those that use them and they are very welcome. Also, seeing as how Alibre is in partners with Adobe, it makes sense for them to polish up the pdf parts of the program.

I have a feeling some of our suggestions are being held out or implemented in the .net version as it would make little sense to code them for two different code bases (of course that's just my opinion).

Jim

 

[HaroldL]

Re:

...I agree with you that more functionality is needed in the sheetmetal and drawing packages, and the AMADA enhancements would have been of great value. I have no idea what happened to that, but perhaps someone on the Alibre team could shed some light on it?

Check out this link for the Amada enhancements:
http://www.alibre.com/store/pc-46-1-sheet-metal.aspx

It looks like this add-on is the same sheet metal module currently shipping with Alibre. Note that it has been "Created in a partnership with Amada Corporation, the world’s largest sheet metal machinery company, the Sheet Metal add-on was programmed to fit the needs and demands of real-world production."

:? Hmmm, let's see, "real-world production", :? does that mean that in the real world we only need the features Alibre has given us so far and there is no need for louvers, bridge lances, jogs, sketched bends and all the other features that have been asked for and Amada builds tooling for?

I can't believe that Amada would want to be associated with such a limited module and can only hope that there will be more funtions/features added in the next release. So much for the "enhancements".

Now that Alibre has been upgraded to run on Vista and output through 3D PDF how about fixing the issues that have been bothering a few of us for quite some time now.

HaroldL